Cyd Charisse

This is what it was all about!

A stunningly beautiful woman and a superlative dancer who starred in two of the very greatest musicals of all time - SINGIN' IN THE RAIN and THE BAND WAGON. Not much of an actress but surely one of the most alluring women ever to appear onscreen. Her body was womanly perfection and watching her dance was thrilling - the perfect combination of strength and elegance.

In the infamous Rob Lowe/"Snow" Academy Awards opening, Cyd was a part of the Cocoanut Grove audience with husband Tony Martin. His first wife Alice Faye was there with husband Phil Harris.

I've seen the outtakes with Marilyn, R7, but not that one, and I thought I'd seen/known a lot. I didn't know that Cyd had been cast in the Polly Bergen role. Adding that to my download list!

Marilyn must have really struggled to keep her weight off during the SOMETHING's shoot because the Marilyn of SOME LIKE IT HOT and THE MISFITS would have looked like a big, blowsy tank next to sleek, toned, incredibly fit Cyd Charisse.

Wikipedia entry on Cyd will explain all, R10.

She was a beautiful woman.

Too bad she wasn't much of a singer or actress. She would have been a terrific Phyllis in "Follies" with Jane Powell or Debbie Reynolds as Sally.

r13

She would have been a better Phyllis than Cloris Leachman.

Troll thread.

OP types this from his mother's basement as Cyd Charisse dances in glory forever.

What’s she up to these days?

R8, Cyd is embarrassingly hammy in the few clips I've seen of her in "Something's Got to Give." She's supposed to be the vain new wife of the Dean Martin character, but she overplays the part, overexaggerating her gestures as if she was doing farce theater.

Supposedly, Marilyn complained to the producers that Cyd was padding her bra to make her breasts appear larger than hers.

she never took a grape when offered

R18 Beulah, everybody knows that you have to peel a grape before you hand it to the queen!

Don't know if it was about Cyd Charisse or another of the French dancers who made it to Hollywood around that time, but Frank Sinatra quipped "her legs to right up to her bird" or words to that affect.

Like so many others in Hollywood at the time, Cyd Charisse and husband were staunch firm republicans.

Hermès always thought I was the better dancer.

“The man's face has more powder on it than Ann Miller's and she's giving him to me!”

A friend who worked with her on the road in the 1970's says she was great fun....more fun than her husband.

He said her only difficulty was that the furniture had to be in the same place every night or she couldn't remember her lines and blocking.....and NO ad libbing......

He also says he ran across her in LA almost 10 years later and she remembered him and talked to him for half an hour asking about how he was doing and how his family was......

[quote]What is Cyd short for?

WHORE

R9 not so. Marilyn lost a lot of weight following gall bladder removal in 1961 and had no problems keeping it off. Her autopsy records her weighing just over 8.3 stone (53kgs). If anything she was underweight.

In much of the restored footage she looks great and the movie could have done well if she was handled well. The studio fired her mainly because they were hemorrhaging money on "Cleopatra" and wanted to cut their losses on likely extended-production costs on this.

A lot of people who claim MM was depressed over this fail to realise Dean Martin (who had final say over his leading lady) refused to make this with MM, and the studio would still have to pay him regardless if it got finished. Therefore they hired MM back shortly before she dies, with better money.

Can't remember who said it but someone famous said (cruelly) the ending was a forgone conclusion because "What man in their right mind would chose Cyd Charisse over Marilyn Monroe?!"

Cyd Charisse was one of those dancers that gave some little boys precocious boners when watching.

I met her in her later years. She was still magnificent, really sweet to me a complete stranger, and had perfect memory of her episode with MM, which she was happy to share.

R27 doesn’t have it exactly right either: I think the Wikipedia article states that Martin refused to make the film without MM, not with her. I once saw about half an hour of Something’s Got To Give on AMC I think, with Bob Dorian introduction (or that newer guy) and it was beautifully shot by Cukor. Oh well.

She danced very very well for a long time. I think she's best in Silk Stockings because for once it suits the character to speak English like a second language. She really went the farthest with the studio produced mid-Atlantic, it usually makes her sound so false. For the flip side of Cyd, watch some of her crime dame films like Tension or Party Girl or East Side West Side. She also played many ethnicities, often with Ricardo Montalban, in movies like Sombrero and Mark of the Renegade or The Wild North.

She did better than most hanging on for a few more films after her MGM contract ended, but she must have felt it coming, going from three films a year in the 40s to one per year in the late 50s, to gap years between films by the mid 60s.

R30 I'm so sorry, I messed up the most pertinent point, Dean Martin refused to go ahead WITHOUT Marilyn as his leading lady. What a gent.

[R27] 116 pounds isn’t particularly thin for a 5’5” movie actress with the camera adding 10lbs and all. Marilyn lost weight due her gall bladder surgery, not due to healthy habits. She was packing on weight again near the end. When she sang Happy Birthday to JFK she looked as if she were hiding several dinner rolls in her girdle. Gay men might be dazzled by boozy, druggy, tubby, crazy Marilyn but I’ll bet that most straight guys would go for Cyd first. Cyd had a far better body and didn’t exude mental and physical ill health.

[R27] Fox canned Marilyn’s fat, crazy ass because she was seemingly incapable of performing. Doris Day was far better in the role than the footage of Marilyn shows. But she did look great in the footage - particularly the screen texts when the weight loss was newer. She was clearly porking out as the shoot went along.

It's amazing to compare the casting of the Cukor/MM film vs. Marty Melchor/Doris Day film. All the old school supporting cast was replaced by tv sitcom staples. The whole affairs was a big downgrade - James Garner, Polly Bergin. Wally Cox got replaced by Don Knotts!

Hey, Marilyn -- this is NOT YOUR THREAD!

r35 I consider James Garner a major upgrade from Dean Martin.

[quote] In August 1960, LeRoy was heading up a drive in Hollywood to recruit others for Nixon. In addition to LeRoy, George Murphy, and Helen Hayes, the 1960 Nixon/Lodge ticket also had other Hollywood backers, including: Jimmy Stewart, Gary Cooper, Rosalind Russell, Robert Montgomery, Robert Cummings, Robert Taylor, Irene Dunn, Cesar Romero and Mary Pickford. Again in 1962, when Nixon ran for Governor of California, he found a similar roster of Hollywood supporters — among them, Jimmy Stewart, Red Skelton, Rosalind Russell, Dick Powell, June Allyson, Robert Young, Tony Martin, Cyd Charisse, Irene Dunn, Johnny Mathis, Louise Beavers, and Efrem Zimbalist, Jr.

I love this number from "It's Always Fair Weather" -she's adorable.

R33 this pic was taken one week after the JFK event, call it poking out?

R34 the clips from the unfinished movie cannot be compared to "Move Over, Darling" which is edited and perfected in the studio.

[R35] Snob with bad taste. The supporting actors were brilliant.

[R39] Soviet apparatchik taking names from 60 years ago. Loser and dumbass.

R33 has it completely backwards. Straight guys love Monroe types. Gays worship Charisse types.

[R41] Yes - clearly beginning to pork out. No discipline. That’s why Cyd is such a compelling contrast. She had it going on as a person.

Cyd Charisse is just awful in the "Something's Got To Give" clips. Zero chemistry with Dean Martin. Humorless. Obviously they wanted someone who looked very different from Monroe but it was horrible casting.

R46 thinks 8st is heavy for an average height woman.

In this snap, a few days before she died she was positively approaching Chrissy Metz territory....

R45 - exactly! The bigger girls are far more popular hence why so many handsome and fit straight guys marry chubbier women. Big boobs, big butt and thicker thighs are what almost all straight men I talk to like. Other than celebrities who beard or have marriages set up by studios or mutual interests, I haven't met a single straight guy who doesn't say models "look like little boys" or "they have no hips".

[R48] Alcoholic weight distribution. Cud’s incredible body speaks for itself.

[R49] Men go for health and intelligence over fat asses and stupidity.

Her niece, Zan Charisse, played Gypsy in the 1974 Angela Lansbury production.

[quote]What’s she up to these days?

She's fine, she sends her love!

I love Cyd with Gene Kelly; this was supposedly her favorite of all her dances:

Cyd replaced Lilianne Montececchi on Broadway's "Grand Hotel"; unfortunately, I have yet to find any footage of her dancing, so we'll have to settle for Leslie Caron in the German production:

(go to 36:00 if the link doesn't)

]quote]She was packing on weight again near the end. When she sang Happy Birthday to JFK she looked as if she were hiding several dinner rolls in her girdle.

Um, no. I can only have one image so instead of the famous ass shot from the JFK celebration, here's one from the George Barris beach shoot, several weeks after JFK.

R52 - yeah cuz most straight men are soooooooo entranced by the smart girls. I can tell you one thing, the smartest and most accomplished straight women I know are single. Ditto the ones into health and fitness. Most straight men are inherently insecure deep down...they don't want to appear "less than" the "little woman". This is why you see so many young, successful white men with larger sized women or Asian/Mexican women who they are trained to think are their "inferiors". I don't care what they say to sound politically correct. The truth is as obvious as Elton was when he married a woman.

Polly Bergen wasn't a poor replacement for Cyd Charisse. Polly could actually act.

[[R52].The smart ones value brains, athleticism and good health - mental and physical.

I want to know how the censors let MGM get away with those swinging beaded tassles hanging off of Cyd's erect boobs on her red dress in the Girl Hunt Ballet, seen at r26?

[R57] Marilyn looks like a very old and unhealthy 36 in that photo. No surprise she was dead soon. The setting sunlight makes it all seem sadder.

[quote]Polly Bergen wasn't a poor replacement for Cyd Charisse. Polly could actually act.

Polly Bergen would have been great together with Dean Martin.

Polly Bergen is really the only funny thing in Move Over, Darling. I love the scenes where she's trying to strip Jim Garner out of his clothes. The rest is a tedious bore.

I think Marilyn still is attractive in those clips, but she clearly looks like someone in her mid-thirties or later, and that breathy little girl voice doesn't really work for her anymore. If she would not have died, I think she would have needed to revamp her style and image a bit and move on from the blonde fantasy (I have never seen The Misfits -- maybe she did there).

[R65] Very perceptive post. Arthur Miller wrote The Misfits and it was his vision of Marilyn that was presented in the movie as the “real” Marilyn. It was Arthur Miller interpreting Marilyn. Fascinating. The real Marilyn ended up dead in bed at the young age of 36. Yet her life still feels like a modern conundrum.

[quote]breathy little girl voice doesn't really work for her anymore.

Good thing she didn't use if for most of the finished film then.

Her scenes with Wally Cox are charming.

She looks like such a movie star.

[R58].I really don’t think it’s about being “inferior” or “superior” - but a lack of ambiguity about sex roles does simplify goals in life. Not the least of which is procreation.

The idea was to have Marilyn do smart, cutting edge comedies - too bad it didn’t happen

Cyd is terrific in Silk Stockings. But then she had one of the great directors of all time to help her Rouben Mamoulian. And she and Fred Astaire are dancing to Cole Porter. The mind reels. Too bad the camera negative is disintegrating and the bluray looks like a musical version of Lawrence of Arabia.

Pure class. What modern actress holds that title today?

They don't dub actresses today, mostly.

As Vicki Gaye...party girl

These were what it was all about.

The clip shown earlier with Marilyn and the two kids was filmed at George Cukor's house.

[quote]The clip shown earlier with Marilyn and the two kids was filmed at George Cukor's house.

No, it was filmed at Fox. They built Cukor's house on Stage 14, including the pool, which is still there, just covered up

And they used the same sets for Move Over Darling.

I love the name "Cyd Charisse." It sounds so glamorous like some perfumed crystal decanter.

Her hair was often badly styled and dyed in films and it made her face look very severe. I fear Mr. Sydney Guilaroff let her down. Her makeup, too, come to think of it.

Cyd Charisse could have been described as "gamine."

Her daughter in law died in the American Airlines flight 191 crash in 1979.

Cyd is leggy which is not gamine.

This clip with her husband is... kind of awful. She should not have been allowed to sing, and it’s jaw-dropping he was a professional. He’s so lumberingly bland.

Cyd's roles in stock tours included Lola in "Damn Yankees" and the title part in "Illya, Darling."

Who let him move like that? Where's Jack Cole when you need him?

Threads are conflating w all the MM comments. Can someone post the Cyd Charisse beaver shot from when her dress twirled up during a lift and she had no panties on? We need to save this thread with 1950s natural beaver pelt. Not that bleached carpet MM painted on with a toothbrush.

In this photo you can see that Miss Charisse bleached her pubis even lighter than Marilyn’s!

PHOTOGRAPHIC PROOF!!

How about Carmen Miranda?

That photo has to be doctored. Why is her crotch in perfect focus but not other parts of the picture at a similar distance from the lens?

In the Girl Hunt Ballet do you look at Cyd or Fred when they are dancing together in the up-tempo bit?

Cyd's husband Tony Martin was a contract player at MGM in the late 1930s. He possessed a beautiful tenor's croon and was quite handsome though perhaps a little too ethnic (he was Jewish and looked Italian) for LB Mayer's tastes, and they never gave him any decent roles. His one shot at stardom was singing "You Stepped Out of a Dream" in Ziegfeld Girl, though IIRC, he's not so much seen as heard as Hedy, Lana, Judy and a host of Adrian-clad showgirls are the focus of the number. He eventually returned to MGM and appeared in some of their final musicals, including Hit the Deck and Deep in My Heart.

He made a much better living producing hit recordings and singing with big bands like Glenn Miller's and Woody Herman's, appearing on the radio and in Las Vegas, where he commanded the highest salary of that time.

He was married to Alice Faye from 1937-41 when she was Fox's biggest and busiest female star. Though their marriage was short-lived his second marriage to Cyd was one of the longest in Hollywood history, 60 years, and ended with her death in 2008. He lived to be 98 and died in 2012.

The song @ r85 seems awkward for him. Maybe it’s not in his natural key, and it was chosen to accommodate her more limited range?

Watching that, I would never in a million years guess he was a headliner.

Marilyn looked absolutely stunning in that clip at R68

The camera loved her.

I think we've licked Cyd's crotch.

Her other Party Girl number...

Why did the Party Girl MUA not match her face to her body?

Cyd was in the ensemble of girl waitresses in 1946's The Harvey Girls and is prominently seen in a few numbers though she isn't given any dance solos.

Doe anyone know why MGM didn't cash in on her talent until the 1950s? What took them so long when they had Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire on the lot needing a great dance partner? I wonder if Arthur Freed was trying so hard to push Lucile Bremer down everyone's throats?

Lucille Bremer was pretty great in her dance numbers with Fred Astaire and her I Won't Dance with Van Johnson is one of the best things in a MGM musical. So what if she was fucking Freed.

[quote]R103 Does anyone know why MGM didn't cash in on her talent until the 1950s?

Because her acting sucked?

Well, she was 28 in 1950 and would have just been entering her dancing prime. MGM, previous to that, didn't really star expert ballerinas in their musicals. Here she is competing with Liliane...

I watch that Kissing Bandit dance every time it appears online! Thanks for posting, r104.

MGM perfection. The costumes, the dancing, Annie and Cyd, and OMG Ricardo and his sideburns! I've never watched the film as it actually stars Sinatra and Kathryn Grayson, lol. Am I missing anything?

28 can be a dangerous age for a dancer, especially a ballerina, veering into old age.

Ann Miller tells a story about doing that dance. She said the dresses she and Cyd wore were so heavy that it gave Ricardo a permanent injury having to lift the girls in them.

R109 - It was a notorious bomb for Sinatra. The dance number was added late when the studio was trying to salvage the film.

Does anyone remember when Dawn French did an imitation of Cyd in the red dress in the Girl Hunt Ballet? She is a surprisingly good dancer considering her size.

It was about dat azz. Even gf's of mine said so.

She was a superb Cassie, r114.

That lady in the background is checking her out.

No Cyd Charisse thread would be complete without...

R61 - i'm surprised the censors allowed the shot of Fred's gun rising like an erection.

She got sexier as she got older.

Sad that she took to stripping to make ends meet.

Somethin' wrong with strippin'?

OMG that woman in the Grand Hotel commercial always makes me laugh. So great! But also such memories of those sad plague years when everyone was dying.

You need to pick up the last few minutes of Monroe's scenes.

32:30 at the link above which didn't take.

I wonder about that platinum shade of blonde on Marilyn's hair (or wig?) and if it wasn't too harsh and aged her a bit.

She needed aging a bit. She was 36, and hopefully aging out of sexpot roles.

I personally think she looked gorgeous in the (uncompleted) film.

Watching the clips is dismaying as it looks like Marilyn is being squeezed into a typically Doris Day 1960s romcom. MM's films were always EVENTS but this looks so ordinary.

It's comparable to the debacle of watching Garbo in Two-Faced Woman, trying to turn her into a screwball heroine a la Irene Dunne, also directed by George Cukor.

Both Marilyn and Garbo ended their careers at the right time, involuntarily or not.

Yeah, Marilyn looked much better than she had in "Some Like It Hot" and the Gable movie. The white/platinum signalled how well she might have looked in old age if she'd been able to get herself together.

Wow - Dean Martin has been dead for over 20 years already. Time flies.

I agree. This is the kind of stuff Doris Day did exceptionally well. Doris was beautiful but could conjure up truly comic facial expressions and voice when she need them, somewhat like Lucille Ball. Perfect for this sort of film.

Monroe had another sort of energy.

In 1962 Monroe should have done something like "Days of Wine and Roses".

Sydney Guilaroff worked with longtime friend, Marilyn and with Director Cukor in designing the style and color she would wear in the film. Because he was still under contract to MGM, he only did Monroe's hair and not Cyd's, although they'd worked together many times at MGM. His MGM contract allowed him to work outside of that studio for individuals who were friends. These included Natalie Wood, Shirley MacLaine and Marilyn.

My own personal experiences with Cyd were negative. When I approached her in 1990 about donating a signed photo for an AIDS auction, she told me I would have to pay her $ 500.00 (cash or bank check) to secure the signed photo.

Previously, in October of 1984 when the National Film Society was scheduled to honor Guilaroff with a lifetime achievement award in Los Angeles, I approached Cyd about paying a tribute to Sydney. Elizabeth Taylor was scheduled to present the honor and a number of other stars Sydney had worked with, were to attend. Even those who could not attend (including Lucille Ball, Greer Garson, Katharine Hepburn, Doris Day, et al) sent telegrams and warm messages.

When I spoke with Cyd she told me that "...if the NFS would like to also honor me, I'd be delighted to honor Sydney., otherwise, my schedule is much too busy..."

Disappointing to hear about Cyd. I assumed that she would have been nicer than that.

R58 is the single stupidest post I've read on this site.

I posted Cyd on the celebs who aged well thread.

She was still impressive almost to the end.

She was a fixture in the "ladies who lunch" crowd in BH. Friendly with my boss.

My impression of her was that of a warm and engaging woman who was gracious even to the help aka me.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Move Over, darling made money but was a critical flop. It was written by sitcom writers adn the problem with the film is that it seems like an extended sitcom. She was still #1 at the box office, but that was soon to change and her career decline/descent would soon begin.

Perky tits and ass why didn't Dean Martin just tell Cyd to scram after Marilyn returned?

Isn't the plot that Dean marries Cyd after Marilyn is declared legally dead?

Yes but once Marilyn returns she has to pose as the Swedish nanny as Dean can't bring himself to say "Hey, my first wife is back!"

Doesn't Dean have any photos of his first wife so that Cyd recognises her? Is does he get rid of them?

I attended the AFI Tribute to Fred Astaire in 1981. A number of people paid tribute to Astaire during the program, which was broadcast on television.

Two of Fred's leading ladies received thunderous applause and standing ovations when they spoke - Audrey Hepburn and Eleanor Powell. Cyd also spoke but only received a solid round of applause but no standing ovation. She was livid about that and complained to friends that Hepburn had made only a few musicals and was "...hardly the dancer I am..." She also noted, "Nobody even remembers who the f--k Powell is..."

Well Audrey was beloved and Eleanor had left the business so I can understand the responses.

Cyd sounds like a nasty bugger

Powell was a star who carried movies by herself. She didn't need anybody else above the title. And Begin the Beguine is Fred's most famous number.

"And Begin the Beguine is Fred's most famous number."

*

Hardly

According to the Donen biography Astaire was unpleasant to Audrey during the filming of Funny Face(he positively could not stand Thompson.) Even though he had starred in the musical on Broadway making its name(yes I know the movie was a different thing) he knew he was on his way out as a box office star and Hepburn was the reason the film was being made not him. Hepburn at that point was an even bigger star than he had ever been. She could have declined the AFI invitation. I would have told them to fuck off. But then Audrey was a gracious person. Or just had a reputation to uphold.

Beguine is today his most famous number. It has an electricity which none of his other numbers can match. Contemporary audiences are more stunned by it than anything else he did. And he did many wonderful numbers.

And Astaire in any case is pretty quickly fading as an icon of American culture. Hepburn is proving to be timeless.

I'll believe you, r152, when you show me your polling sources.

I wonder if Fred felt out of sorts at Paramount when Funny Face was picked up by that studio after MGM, his home studio, had to abandon it? Perhaps he didn't get the protection at Paramount to which he was accustomed? And he must have been nervous about yet another role opposite a leading lady practically old enough to be his granddaughter after the failure of Daddy Long Legs with Leslie Caron. Wasn't Funny Face his last film as a romantic hero?

Funny Face was an Audrey Hepburn film. It was all about glorifying her. She even played the title character.

Show me your polling sources when you haven't even mentioned one number contemporary audiences would enjoy more. And how many people outside of aging gay men have even more than a nodding acquaintance with him? His audience is dying off if any of them are even left. My personal favorite is Let's Face the Music. Maybe during his lifetime it was Cheek to Cheek or Top Hat, White tails. His absolute best and one of the very best scenes in any movie in the history of film musical or not is Never Gonna Dance.

I would offer Fred and Ginger on the rooftop dancing to Let's Face the Music and Dance as far more well-known and beloved by the average movie fan than Begin the Beguine. She's in the brilliant beaded dress with the swinging sleeves.

And I'm not the poster you're arguing with, r156. And I'm a huge Eleanor Powell fan and in awe of Begin the Beguine (which may well be technically more proficient).

Calling it technically more proficient is not doing it justice. As if its musicality and style were taking second place. It is tap dancing as opposed to the the ballroom dancing of Let's Face the Music.

Girl Hunt Ballet, the Hat Rack dance, You're All the World to Me, and as you mention his classic ballroom numbers with Ginger, r156. You stated Beguine is "his most famous number"...

I wasn't even aware of Begin the Beguine until I saw it featured in That's Entertainment.

Sadly, it was in a very boring film (all of Eleanor Powell's films are boring except for her numbers) so the number wasn't viewed much until the internet separated and featured it in clips for the younger generations

[quote]Her niece, Zan Charisse, played Gypsy in the 1974 Angela Lansbury production.

Another niece, Nana Visitor, who played Kira Nerys on "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine," is Zan Charisse's sister.

The new girls at MGM: Ava, Cyd, Lina Romay, and Gloria DeHaven. Ha!

[quote]he positively could not stand Thompson

I wonder what Astaire's problem with Thompson was.

Besides the fact that she was such a dog.

Kay was splendid and filled with bazazz, r166...

R165, Lina Romay, actress, singer, dancer extraordinaire. She performed with Xavier Cugat years before Abbe Lane and Charo.

I don't know who that is on the right in r164's photo, but It's not Gloria de Haven.

Don't you mean Ain't Miss De Haven, r169?

R96 Tony Martin was a radio singer and his film appearances helped sell more records - he was never going to be an actor. And to be fair. the movie was called Ziegfeld Girl, so the focus would never be on the male singer (see Dennis Morgan in The Great Ziegfeld as well). While "Caribbean Love Song" showed him off better (unfortunately there are no clips online), "You Stepped Out Of A Dream" captured him at his best.

But, r171, I thought it was odd that MGM never employed Tony Martin to star opposite Judy Garland as she aged into leading lady roles. Clearly, they thought only Mickey Rooney would be believable as a love interest.

That's the very young Carol Burnett dancer Don Crichton as one of Gloria's sailors in r170's clip. Cute!

I miss the days of variety hour TV shows that would employ so much musical and choreographic talent and spend that kind of money on sets and costumes on a weekly basis. Many of those shows were still shot in New York and kept Broadway talent busy when they weren't appearing on stage.

"A Bombshell from Brooklyn" - Xavier Cugat & His Orchestra, featuring Brooklyn-born Lina Romay, from "Stage Door Canteen" (1943)

Can anyone find and post a clip of the montage they used in That's Entertainment III that begins with the Ziegfeld Girl number and then becomes gorgeous closeups of all of the MGM ladies while Tony Martin sings? I've never been able to find it online.

Tony Martin is at his best in Till the Clouds Roll by. He has two appearances. The first he and Grayson do a wonderful Make Believe and at the end a spectacular All the Things You Are. The end of that film is interesting in that there are three songs all are slow with very limited camera movement. First Martin, then Horne, then Sinatra. Imagine audiences with literally thousands of people(it opened at Radio City as the Christmas movie) sitting quietly focused on the gorgeous music and singing for that length of time as the climax of a film.

Must everything be a competition???

Ava's legs look longer than Cyd's in that photo, too. Surprised because I thought Ava was always unhappy with what she perceived to be her short legs (or was it her long torso?).

Great fun number with Dorothy Loudon at r176! One of the straps of her Charleston dress breaks before the number is done and she just keeps dancing, oblivious to it. Live TV! How did the dress ever stay up with all of that frenetic dancing?

The clip shown earlier with Marilyn and the two kids was filmed at George Cukor's house.

R77 That wasnt George's house, it was a studio partial reproduction of George's backyard. It was used again in Move Over, Darling and What a Way to Go.

I have watched that number several times, r181, and this was the first time I noticed that! In other strap breaking news...second chorus girl on the left at 00:45

I always heard that Fred Astaire said Cyd was his best dancing partner....I could believe it.

[quote]I don't know who that is on the right in [R164]'s photo, but It's not Gloria de Haven.

Could it be Gloria Grahame? I only know GG from her films noirs, where she looks kind of busted. This dolly sort of looks like her but cuter.

Did any of you wear bikinis like the ones at r164? (Or maybe your mother did?). Obviously, they were cut so as to hide the "indecent" navel but I imagine if someone was active while wearing one, the navel would pop out.

Those aren't bikinis, r186, they're a two-piece. I sold an absolutely stunning one on eBay years and years ago. I should see if I still have the pics.

Your two piece wasn't very well displayed on that red mannequin, r188. I hope you got a decent price for it, anyway.

Believe me, it was a rough time in my life and that was the best I could muster. The original owner was a 44D and all I had to display it on was a (maybe) size 6 torso. I think I got decent money for it.

It's not Ann Sheridan, r164. She was a Warner's gal and these MGM starlets.

I'd guess maybe Ann Rutherford but I think she might have already been too big a star (with GWTW and Andy Hardy) by the time this photo was taken to pose with up and comers in the 1940s.

r164 - Reverse Google image search shows that the dame on the far right is pre-plastic surgery and obviously-unrecognizable starlot Gloria Grahame.

[quote]R166 I wonder what Astaire's problem with Thompson was.

Sada was devastated to be dropped from “Royal Wedding.” But Hermes Pan threw his back out trying to lift her in rehearsal, and Fred was having [italic]none of it.

Of course, Thompson's role was meant to be played by Dolores Gray.

Kay had more of DV's sense of style.

Oh for chrissakes, now I have to watch this...

^I’ll watch THAT, R198, for Suzy Parker alone! The most beautiful model ever.

Anita Morris' wardrobe malfunction at 2;40

The name 'Sid' is ungracious, unfeminine, and ugly.

The name 'Sid' belongs to people like Ernest Borgnine, Walter Matthau or the grotesque Sid James.

Beats Stanley or Roy, r201.

Cyd not Sid. And it is a Greek female name.

[quote]She's in the brilliant beaded dress with the swinging sleeves.

I've held this dress several times. Heavy motherfucker.

[quote] Cyd … is a Greek female name.

I went to Google and it told me that the name Cyd means … " A Public Hill" !

Well, we all knew that about ‘er!

"I Want to Be Your Property" - Blue Mercedes, featuring Cyd Charisse

There must be a reason she was chosen to play the expressionless, ungracious, grim-faced Russian automaton in 'Silk Stockings'.

[quote]There must be a reason she was chosen to play the expressionless, ungracious, grim-faced Russian automaton in 'Silk Stockings'.

Because she was the Greta Garbo of the 1950s?

NObody could have done this number better than Cyd.

[quote]Nobody could have done this number better than Cyd.

Buck could have.

Astaire, according to the late Robert Osborne at TCM, felt upstaged by Thompson in FF because she stole the show in their musical number together, “Ring Dem Bells”. His love scenes with Hepburn were awkward; not only was he too old, but he was really a homely man. I think that Gene Kelly would have been a better fit as Dick Avery. Even though he was seventeen years Audrey Hepburn’s senior, he was far more energetic and masculine than Astaire. And definitely handsomer.

Ironically, Kelly was working with Natalie Wood in MARJORIE MORNINGSTAR while FUNNY FACE was in production. He was twenty six years older than Wood, portraying a thirty three year old entertainer. Regardless, tons more sex appeal than Bug eyed Fred.

I believe you mean Clap Yo' Hands, r213...

The way the number is staged and lit, it's hard not to look at Kay, especially with her bright red vest and bare legs. Kay does most of the singing (shrilly) and Fred seems like a back up boy. I can't imagine Gene would have stood for that....he would have at least demanded red socks.

[quote]I believe you mean Clap Yo' Hands, R213 ...

I believe you're right, R214.

According to Imdb, Cyd was actually offered Audrey's role first when the project was initially set up at MGM. When It moved to Paramount and Audrey was sought, she said she wouldn't do it without the guarantee of Fred's presence (though she got top billing). He was 30 years older than her. He made Silk Stockings the same year 1957 and that was his last appearance in a film musical until 1968's Finian's Rainbow.

Gene Kelly reportedly said that whenever he saw Cyd try to act, he had to remind himself what a good dancer she was.

Cyd had every reason to be jealous about AH in FUNNY FACE. Hepburn could barely sing, couldn't dance on her big feet and skinny legs, and yet she had more charm in her little finger than CC had in her whole body.

Believe it or not, Funny Face was a financial flop when it first opened and garnered some wretched reviews. It wasn't until it was reissued in 1964 after Audrey had such a huge hit with My Fair Lady that Funny Face finally turned a profit. All according to Imdb.

I prefer DOrothy VIrginia MAgaret in Think Pink.

[quote] Audrey had such a huge hit with My Fair Lady

I doubt poor Audrey could claim credit for that. I'd give more credit to the lyricist, the composer and Rex.

Poor's Audrey ten-year long reign was about to fizzle out into wrinkly anorexia.

In pink or with pachyderm, r222, that gal stood out.

When I watch Cyd dance, I am almost always impressed with her skill and technique. She hits her marks and performs sometimes complex and intricate moves, making them seem easier than they are. My response is usually, "fine job"!

However, I am rarely bowled over and that it because I don't usually feel her heart in her dancing. There's a passion or emotional piece that seems to be missing. I also rarely find myself feeling that she is enjoying what she is doing.

I can watch Eleanor Powell or Ann Miller or Ginger Rogers, and feel they are loving what they are doing and having a glorious time doing it. Something emanates when they dance and it makes me, as the viewer, feel that joy.

Cyd has, to me, a somewhat reserved or detached and cool feel when she dances or acts. I don't regret watching her but neither do I feel absorbed by her artistry.

I feel the opposite. Cyd was so glamorous. The others had talent, but no glamour

Miss Finkles could dance very smoothly, but she sounded very clunky trying to read lines of script..

Another non-singing dancer...Miss Sheree North

You could see her bush in Singin' In The Rain.

Her name sounds fancy, as if it should look like this:

I remember when Cyd guest starred on the Love Boat and she lip synched a song which was obviously her own voice. She was so terrible that they cut away mid song and focused on another story, leaving her "singing" as background noise.

True, she might have been a great Phyllis in Follies if she could have sung.

Alexis Smith wasn't much of a singer but she brought great humor to the role of Phyllis and her songs in Follies. Cyd could never have put over the zingers.

[quote]I remember when Cyd guest starred on the Love Boat and she lip synched a song which was obviously her own voice. She was so terrible that they cut away mid song and focused on another story, leaving her "singing" as background noise.

Were the "Love Boat" writers unaware that Cyd was always dubbed by other singers in her MGM musicals?

There are a couple of YT video out there will her alleged real singing voice and she's not that bad. She's certainly not good but she doesn't descend to Lina Lamont levels.

R226 - Ann Miller had glamour.

I'm talkin' 'bout glamour!

Ann Miller was a cartoon.

An overly made up screeching cartoon.

These two women are not in the same species.

r235, I always thought of her as kind of cheesy but your mileage may vary

I can’t get over how no one saw how homely Ginger Rogers was. She was a blonde and had nice legs. No one looked past that. But her features were quite coarse and she had a problem with peach fuzz (which Judy Garland reminded her of when she replaced her in THE BARKLEYS OF BROADWAY). Maybe she and Astaire played well off of each other because they were both borderline fug.

Ginger also looked pretty matronly from the 50s on, though she still insisted on presenting as a "girl", that's one of the many things that makes The First Traveling Saleslady so ridiculous.

In the 60s and 70s, even though she was still dancing and working, Ginger packed on the pounds and really took on that overpainted classic drag queen look.

I can't get over the fact that you have never seen Ginger in her photos from the Broadway production of Girl Crazy or in the film 42nd Street or in the earlier films she did with Astaire. Yes her features hardened over time but when young she was indeed very very pretty.

In her prime, Ginge had snap, crackle *and* pop!

You're just jealous, r240, because she snagged Jacques.

R244, it wasn't so hard to do.

And Dorothy was prettier than fuzzfaced Ginger.

I don't know why Ginger was so sanctimonious and cheap when you know that love tunnel saw a lot of traffic from just the five husbands alone.

Such a...glistening...MAME.

Fuck Jacques! She had Lew!

And Jimmy Stewart lost his virginity to Ginger. That's something.

She may not have been gorgeous but she had the all-American clean cut good looks that movie goers craved after the pretentious exoticism of Gloria Swanson, Marlene Dietrich and Greta Garbo. Ginger was relatable. And she did look fabulous in all of those exquisite Bernard Newman gowns in her RKO pictures with Fred. And she could be genuinely funny, I love her in The Major and Minor.

Her problem was that somewhere in the 1940s (maybe after she won her Oscar?) she began to take herself far too seriously, signed on for too many non-musical melodramas and some of those performances often verged on a sanctimonious Great Lady persona. Yet she still delivered in the few comedies she did like that decade's Roxie Hart and in the 1950s Howard Hawks comedy Monkey Business.

He lost his virginity to Ginger? Where did you hear that?

What's ol' fuzzy face doing stinkin' up MY thread?

We lost interest in you Cyd when we heard what a cunt you were. $500 for an autograph for an AIDs' auction? And cash or a bank check? Don't you take credit cards?

I was donating the money to AIDS!

I love Ginger Rogers and I think she looked great into old age. A great comedienne and dancer in those old 1930s films! She and her mother were also Christian Scientists so lucky they were quite healthy until later years.

Fred and Ginger Dancing House Prague

I remember as a boy seeing a picture of Ginger in Hello Dolly. That face frightened me. I had never seen Kabuki before.

r259, to be fair, back in the early1960s all the Broadway divas did extremely exaggerated makeup, particularly on their eyes, as stage lighting wasn't as strong and as flattering as it is today. And that heavy mascara was the style then even on the street. Just look at photos of Streisand, Barbara Harris, Carol Channing, Tammy Grimes, Bea Lillie, Carol Burnett, even Vivien Leigh in their shows.

Nothing like watching chorus boys dancing with a 10 foot pole.

Why was The Hollywood Palace always so cheesey? It had none of the sophistication and flair of all of those variety hours that were produced and shot in New York City.

It gave her the chance to "spread her legs" something she did with great regularity during her years at MGM for any takers.

Ginger's speech to Ephraim at the beginning of the clip at R260 is almost painfully sincere, from that "sincere" school of acting that some older actresses seem to adopt.

R261, Ginger was wearing it thick even before then, to cover up her peach fuzz. She was very sensitive about it. Jean Arthur and Barbara Stanwyck had it too, but not as bad as Ginger, not nearly as bad. On Ginger it looked like bilirubin.

Peach fuzz is easily dealt with by waxing or shaving. Nothing to wear caked on makeup over. What happens to these stars then and now is that they get so used to being made up to the max every day that they feel naked without it. Becomes a crutch and tied into self esteem. A friend saw Winona Judd at a eyeglass show where she was selling her designer frames. Made up to the max. Like stage ready in a cheesy convention centre with bad lighting. Ridiculous!

The Barbra Streisand Egyptian eyeliner look and the dramatic eye makeup of the early '60s was inspired by La Liz's Cleopatra look.

Liz really started her slide into plumphood with that movie. Her face was starting to puff up.

You see how pleasingly plump she had gotten when she has that semi nude scene when she's getting a massage. It's like thank god I can let out my stays and give Irene a day off.

"Beat Girl" from 1960 (I think it was shot in 1959) featured the heavy eye make up look.

Starlet Gillian Hills with Christopher Lee.

More of Cyd and the Del Ray Brothers...

So I guess that's Cyd's real "singing" voice at r273, even if pre-recorded?

I remember when Cyd Charisse made her belated Broadway debut as a replacement in "Grand Hotel," the NYT went back and reviewed the show again and was not kind about her "singing."

r273 - Her voice/delivery and look was somewhat reminiscent of Raquel.

Bullshit, r275, everything about her was *terrific*!

She was the weakest element in "Grand Hotel" and her singing (???) caused the woman sitting behind me to remark, "She used to have such a beautiful voice and amazing range in all her old films. I guess this is what happens when you don't maintain your vocal training..."

[quote]What happens to these stars then and now is that they get so used to being made up to the max every day that they feel naked without it.

Imagine that.

[quote]What happens to these stars then and now is that they get so used to being made up to the max every day that they feel naked without it.

Huh.

Sorry about the double post.

Marilyn actually looks good in that shot

Cyd looking great and dancing well at the age of 67 at 3:37 here:

Oh Jesus....*that* number...

Yes, the first Mrs. Tony Martin (Alice Faye) looks wonderful.

According to Carr and several other onlookers, Cyd through a hissy fit when Tony Martin dared to walk over and greet Alice Faye during rehearsals.

[quote]Cyd through a hissy fit...

Oh, dear!

^ Cyd thought a hissy fit.

My error - THREW a hissy fit!!! Sorry 'bout that and to think I was an English Major in College.

Were you talking into an iPhone, English Major?

"Cyd through a hissy fit" is poetic.

[quote]and to think I was an English Major in College.

Apparently that college was in Turkmenistan.

How in the world did they ever get Disney to approve of Snow White being featured in that wretched number?

R293, they didn't. And that's why Disney sued the Academy for copyright infringement.

They didn't. There was much hullabaloo and Disney organized their lawyers until it was pointed out that a lawsuit against the Academy would insure that Disney never received another Oscar nomination again. Then everyone moved onto other things.

Tula Finklea would have to be one of the most Semitic names ever for a shiksa of Scottish descent.

[quote]"Cyd through a hissy fit"

It ranks up there with Jackie On Assistance.

Through a hissy fit, cydly.

R295 I thought the Oscars were based on merit so that Disney filing a lawsuit would have no bearing on being nominated and even winning for quality work.

I'm sure it's already been said in here a dozen times over ( I haven't read the topic), but she was a beautiful woman/wonderful dancer who MGM attempted to turn into an actress. Her dancing was always flawless, but she was no actress! I remember watching her in the Barbara Stanwyck flick East Side, West Side (1949), and her acting was so bad that she even made Ava Gardner's (also starring) performance look brilliant in comparison! She may have gotten better in dramatic parts later, but in the beginning she was horrible.

Funny sidenote.......India Adams, who dubbed Cyd & Joan Crawford at MGM (the infamous Two-Faced Woman number) said in several interviews that Cyd was a "Cold Fish" aka Real Bitch. India said she introduced herself to Cyd years after the MGM days at a Hollywood function & informed her that she had dubbed her singing in films. Miss Adams said that Cyd looked her up and down, turned around and walked away without saying a word. Ouch!

Defenders of Cyd put all that behavior, and there are many examples, as her being extremely shy and introverted and easily hurt and insecure and all that. But I think the cold self-centered explanation holds more water, from the times I saw Charisse onstage and in person, including toward the end of her life.

She was fully invested in giving the public "Cyd Charisse" but unlike most other MGM stars, who understood what they signed up for and who trafficked in warmth and familiarity in their interactions with fans, Charisse always kept fans at a cold arms length. Jane Powell was a variation on this.

Debbie Reynolds, Van Johnson, June Allyson, Gloria DeHaven, Betty Garrett, Marge Champion, Janet Leigh, Angela Lansbury, Rosemary Clooney, even Carleton Carpenter couldn't have been nicer or more professional.

R299 made me laugh with "...Oscars were based on merit..."

r301, I'm surprised by your comment about Jane Powell. In her post-stardom interviews she always seems as sweet and warm as she did in her films. Where have you seen or heard otherwise?

I've worked with Jane Powell and had several interactions with her before and after. She was extremely nice.

Let me tell you about Janie Powell.

This thread about Cyd is very enlightening. I don't think I'll be able to watch her films again without thinking: "What a cold stingy bitch!"

Yes, R301 she's great at the interviews. Glad you had great experiences with her, R304.

What a great interview, r307!! Thanks for posting it.

Jane Powell doesn't come off particularly "sweet" and that's meant as a compliment.

Joan Crawford didn't like Jane Powell. In "Conversations with Joan Crawford", she called her "that horrible screeching THING". But then Joan didn't care for too many actresses unless they were into the cunnilingus with her.

Barbara Stanwyck ran June Allyson off the set of "Executive Suite" in tears because she showed up unprepared for rehearsals. I would have loved to have seen that go down.

I'd never heard that Allyson story, R309. Where is it from? It's so odd, as Allyson certainly knew what would be required of her on set by that point in her career.

By 1954, she'd been making 2-3 films per year for MGM, though her long term MGM contract had ended in 1953 by mutual consent. She'd slowed down to 1 film per year in 1951-52, presumably to raise her son born in December 1950.

1953 had her in Battle Circus opposite Bogart, which was profitable, and Remains to Be Seen, her last film with Van Johnson, where she was miscast and the movie lost quite a bit of money.

In 1954 she worked at three studios: Universal (Glenn Miller Story, a top ten movie that year), MGM (Executive Suite) and Fox (Woman's World). She was the top billed female in all of them.

[quote]Barbara Stanwyck ran June Allyson off the set of "Executive Suite" in tears because she showed up unprepared for rehearsals.

Was that the cause of her lifelong incontinence problem?

I little allowance of rug munching would have shut Barbara RIGHT up.

June was... unpredictable.

There are just a few actresses whose great popularity in its time is a big mystery to most people today and, coincidentally, they were all products of the MGM studio system:

June Allyson

Greer Garson

Kathryn Grayson

This thread is all over the place, but I'll play: June Allyson is charming in Ggood Nnews and Llittle Lwomen among many ithers

Katherine Grayson does a good job as Magnolia in Showboat plus several other musicals of the period.

Greer Garson I'm not as familiar with, but I do believe that she turned in an Oscar-winning performance as Mrs. Miniver, which is probably the movie the world needed exactly at the time it was produced. And she did a fine job as Eleanor Roosevelt in Sunrise at Campobello.

I liked Allyson in Good News but thought she was all wrong in Little Women (in addition to being like a decade too old)

[quote]R315 There are just a few actresses whose great popularity in its time is a big mystery to most people today.... June Allyson, Greer Garson, Kathryn Grayson

Don’t forget me.

Carol Richards who dubbed Cyd's singing voice for "Brigadoon" told a similar story. She'd attended a performance by Tony Martin and was greeting him after the show - telling him how much she had enjoyed him.

Cyd arrived and Carol introduced herself, mentioning their connection through the film.

Without even so much as acknowledging her, Cyd took Tony's arm and they walked away.

I sympathise with Sid in that situation.

Sid acknowledging the person who provided her fake voice is saying that Sid is a fake.

[quote]Greer Garson I'm not as familiar with, but I do believe that she turned in an Oscar-winning performance as Mrs. Miniver, which is probably the movie the world needed exactly at the time it was produced. And she did a fine job as Eleanor Roosevelt in Sunrise at Campobello.

Greer Garson replaced Rosalind Russell on Broadway in "Auntie Mame."

[quote]I sympathise with Sid in that situation. Sid acknowledging the person who provided her fake voice is saying that Sid is a fake.

And Cyd not acknowledging her showed that Cyd was a cunt.

[quote] …not acknowledging…

I'm researching group of families from the 1860s to 1890s.

One of the main topics of discussion for the wives at that time was 'The Servant Problem' and 'Should One Use Their Name When Speaking at them?'.

Louis B. Mayer "discovered" Greer Garson while searching for new talent in London. He brought her to Hollywood and put her in prestige pictures normally reserved for Norma Shearer. With Irving Thalberg dead, he sought fresh talent and signed on Greer, Lana, Ava, and Judy. And within a few short years Greta, Norma, Jeanette, Myrna, and Joan were out.

Well, since we've long since evolved into a discussion on MGM musical actresses, does anyone want to talk about Esther Williams?

I'm certainly not interested in hearing any gossip about Esther Williams.

To be fair, Garbo and Shearer had both had quite enough and were more than ready to voluntarily retire by 1942. And they kept their word and never appeared on film again in their long lives. Joan, not so much, of course.

And they took Gilbert Adrian with them. The MGM glamour was gone.

Greer has made a few MGM classics are still beloved today by classic movie lovers. Goodbye Mr. Chips, Mrs Miniver, and Random Harvest. She's pretty wonderful in all three. The Valley of Decision with Gregory Peck is good too. And it flips the too older man younger woman star duo which has especially come under criticism today. Garson was in her 40s and Peck in his 20s. J Tandy is terrific in it as Peck's unpleasant wife.

I’ve often wondered how Bonnie Franklin would have fit into the studio system.

I see her tap dancing her way into the hearts of millions.

Please have your vision checked *immediately*, r331.

She was certainly no Ann Miller!

I love Jane Powell’s honesty and her fuck them all attitude.

Jane was a bridesmaid at Liz's first wedding which was a big MGM staged production. Jane said though they attended school together and appeared in movies she really don't know her. Kind of like why am I this person's bridesmaid she's a work colleague.

I suppose they were hoping she'd be the new Jeanette...

[quote]Was that the cause of her lifelong incontinence problem?

It DEPENDS on who you ask?

[quote]I'd never heard that Allyson story, [R309]. Where is it from? It's so odd, as Allyson certainly knew what would be required of her on set by that point in her career.

It was in that controversial Axel Madson bio.

And they took Gilbert Adrian with them. The MGM glamour was gone.

Anyone who has watched Adrian's prediction of future fashions from the color insert of The Women (1939) knows that his day was nearly over. He went out on his own and made no mark whatsoever.

One day you're in...

[quote]I’ve often wondered how Bonnie Franklin would have fit into the studio system.

That face on the big screen? Eeeeesh.

Was Bonnie as pretty as Carol Haney?

I'm gonna take a little nap...

I imagine Jane Powell was groomed to take the place Deanna Durbin never inhabited at MGM. And a threat to keep Judy Garland and June Allyson in line.

Interesting that her real name was Suzanne Burce which could have so easily been changed to the lovely Suzanne Bruce and yet they went for Jane Powell, with the all-American girl-next-door connotation of the first name and the MGM-related royalty of the last (William and Eleanor).

Jane Powell was the name of the character in her first film, r344.

Deanna didn't screech her high notes they way the MGM gals did.....at least the way Jane & Kathryn did. Jeanette MacDonald must have had better training.

Jane & Kathryn voices were just irritating........

Deanna didn't screech her high notes they way the MGM gals did.....at least the way Jane & Kathryn did. Jeanette MacDonald must have had better training.

Jane & Kathryn voices were just irritating........

Now you're just being repetitious.

And I turned to my friend Elmo and I said "Just look at the pins on that broad". He enthusiastically shook his head in agreement. What a dame!

How many superb dancers can you name who did porn?

Can you start the list for us, R350? Because I am unfamiliar with such a thing.

The lovely Miss Helen Wood, J.P.

This porn star was a "rejected dancer" in "A Chorus Line" (movie version), but that probably means he wasn't "superb."

Helen Wood as Joanna Moss...

OP - Legs. It was about legs. Legs and legs and more legs.

Yes. Legs and legs and more legs.

"Darling, the legs aren't so beautiful, I just know what to do with them."

Marlene, it's a pity you broke them. Twice.

Her first name came from her younger brother as a child trying to say “Sis.” Once working in Hollywood, the spelling was changed to a more exotic “Cyd.”

“Charisse” was the surname of her first husband, Nico Charisse, whom she danced with in Los Angeles and married in Paris in 1939, divorced in 1947, one son, Nicky. Married to singer Tony Martin in 1948, until her death in 2008, one son, Tony Martin, Jr.

Cyd Charisse was a Methodist and Republican.

and a first class BITCH!!, James Mitchell, a brilliant dancer and later Palmer on "All My Children" knew Cyd and Tony and even danced with Cyd in the film, "Deep in My Heart". .

He always said she worked hard and they worked well together. He also noted, "She's a cold fish. The only thing that warms her is money..."

Mitchell also said that he confronted her once after overhearing her calling the guys who danced in the chorus, "The sissy boys..." He reminded her that he was a homosexual and she remarked, "Okay, then the sissy men..."

[quote]And Begin the Beguine is Fred's most famous number.

Only 'cause they didn't allow black people in movies. Michael Jackson was a better dancer.

Urban legend has it that when Garson won the Oscar, her acceptance speech was 45 minutes long.

That's an Urban legend and NO ONE recorded it to prove its existence.

James Mitchell also famously danced with Cyd in The Bandwagon.

His long time partner was stage and film costume designer Albert Wolsky who won two Oscars, one for All That Jazz and one for Bugsy. Albert's still with us, I believe.

It was actually 5 minutes and 30 seconds, r362...

Mr. Wolsky's impressive film resume...

[quote]I sympathise with Sid in that situation.

Sid Luft?

James Mitchell is Dream Curly for eternity. Dream Laurie is still with us and is 94. She is the only surviving member of Oklahoma's opening night(at least for featured performers as far as I know) and created the role of Louise in Carousel.

[quote]Dream Laurie is still with us and is 94. She is the only surviving member of Oklahoma's opening night(at least for featured performers as far as I know) and created the role of Louise in Carousel.

I have a name!

[quote]"She's a cold fish. The only thing that warms her is money..."

Well, they did say she was a Republican.

How did someone named "Bambi Linn" not end up as a stripper?

Would she have scored even greater success as Cyd Chartreuse?

It's rare when a DL thread about an old Hollywood actress changes one's mind about them but this one certainly has. And, yes, I'm talking about Cyd Charisse.

She goes into the “foul cunt” file.

I always knew Cyd was a major bitch from way back(as in trying to get people fired for bullshit reasons) so no disillusionment here and I can go on enjoying her performances. And she even does a good enough acting job in Band Wagon. Telling her manipulative choreographer boyfriend(the ubiquitous)James Mitchell to fuck off is a good moment.

Did Nanette Fabray ever comment on Cyd? I know she was quite vocal about Oscar Levant. She outlived Cyd by more than a few years.

When she was appearing in a production of "No No Nanette" at the North Shore Music Theatre in Beverly, Massachusetts, I had the opportunity to speak with her after the show.

I commended her on her performance in "Nanette" (as Sue, the role Ruby Keeler had played) and mentioned how great she'd been in "The Bandwagon". She thanked me and said it had been an unhappy experience for her in many ways, "...because of our leading lady, who seemed to resent my being in 'her show' and went out of her way to make sure I felt unwelcome..."

I know that publicly she was more tactful about the film and did love working with Fred. Nanette was a lady and would not have said, for publication, how she felt about Cyd but I've a feeling she was more receptive to9 discussing it in private.

I saw Nanette in a play at the Ogunquit, Playhouse in Maine in the summer of 1985. After the show she was very welcoming and gracious about signing autographs and talking with audience members.

I told her how good she'd been in "The Bandwagon" and she beamed and said how much fun it had been to work with Fred, Jack and even Oscar. I said, "And Cyd, too?"

Nanette's response was "Oh was she in it too? I guess I'd forgotten..."

OMG, the Cyd bashing never ends. I love it!

Yeah, it was legs. If she got other roles, it wasn't because she got in on her dramatic talent first.

Michael Jackson was a hoofer with only one mode. He was a "better dancer" than the tappin', swingin', waltzin', etc., Fred Astaire in some other Universe.

These anecdotes have me wondering how Cyd behaved towards DL fave Dolores Gray, who was no shrinking violet.

The back story of It's Always Fair Weather must have been epic. Stanley and Gene hating each other as only former lovers can topped off by huge professional jealousy, Gene jealous of Michael Kidd to the point of having Kidd's big number cut out of the film and the mind reels at Dolores and Cyd working together.

Dolores ended up by kicking Michael in the balls when they worked on Destry together. Even her mother got in on it I believe slapping his face.

And Dan swanning about in Helen Rose creations.

It was also said that Dolores was set on doing her own thing in her numbers. Thankfully, Jack Cole got through to her, at least in "Thanks a Lot But No Thanks." I suspect she may have got her own way with "Music Is Better Than Words."

Cyd gives passable straight performances in East Side West Side and Tension (both 1949). She plays the good glrl so maybe there was more acting than we thought.

[quote]When she was appearing in a production of "No No Nanette" at the North Shore Music Theatre in Beverly, Massachusetts, I had the opportunity to speak with her after the show.

I took my mom to see that production. Nanette was played by DL icon Bonnie Franklin!

"No No Nanette" starring Nanette Fabray.

How droll.

I know Nanette had a great TV career and was one of the medium's most popular performers in the 1950s but I wonder if she really wanted to do some more film work. Other than The Bandwagon, I don't think she ever got close to a starring role. Of course she also played leading roles on Broadway in High Button Shoes and Love Life.

[quote]Of course she also played leading roles on Broadway in High Button Shoes and Love Life.

And, don't forget, Irving Berlin's final Broadway musical, "Mr. President"!

R392, Nanette attended Hollywood High School with Alexis Smith, where they competed for roles in school productions.

"Cyd gives passable straight performances in East Side West Side and Tension (both 1949). She plays the good glrl so maybe there was more acting than we thought."

I thought she was decent in Twilight For the Gods, with Rock Hudson

If Nanette had auditioned for Mame would she have had a better chance than Angela? Let's say she was as good as Angela or pretty close? Wouldn't she have been a bigger star in terms of Broadway audiences and theater party ladies for advance sales? Was Dolores Gray a serious contender? Would they really have gone for her instead of Lansbury? What other competition was there? Channing?

R385, all that sturm und drang on the set up It's Always Fair Weather, and the picture turned out to be such a miserable drag. Its apologists and/or supporters say that it was pivotal in showing how old Hollywood was ending and a new Hollywood is taking over, but did it have to be so dreary at the same time?

Nanette Fabray = Noseless Fabray.

No Nose Nanette. I saw her a rerun of The Carol Burnett Show and in profile, she almost literally has no nose. It's incredibly distracting.

When I saw her in "No No, Nanette" at North Shore Music Theater in Beverly, Mass., I had an aisle seat, and she happened to be standing right next to me for about a minute while waiting to go onstage (it's theater in the round). I tried not to stare, but I was fascinated by the fact that she had virtually no profile.

I had no idea Cyd Charisse was a bitch. She seemed so likable. Who could ever dislike Nanette Fabray?

She looked like a monkey.

Are there any more Cyd stories? Like those of Cyd pointedly and dramatically refusing to chat with someone?

Marilyn's problem with Cyd padding her bra must have been something to be overlooked since Cyd says in the Something's Got To Give documentary Marilyn sent her a telegram asking her to be part of the film when it was to be re-started.

Cyd's husband once said that he always knew whom she'd been rehearsing with, because if it was Astaire (who adored her as a partner because she was ballet trained) she was fine, but if it was Kelly she came home black and blue.

Whilst Astaire was known as a perfectionist, Kelly was known as truly vicious in his rehearsal phases.

Cyd had huge issues with her husband's relationship with his previous wife, Alice Faye.

Faye and Martin had married in 1937 and divorced several years later. The divorce was friendly with both recognizing that they'd married very young and each had different career paths they wanted to follow.

Alice was well loved in Hollywood for her earthiness, warm personality and genuine sense of fun. It was also widely known that she'd been able to resist the advances of Fox's Zanuck, bluntly telling him off. (She later walked out on her contract when Zanuck had some of her best work cut from "Fallen Angel").

Alice also noted to friends that although her second husband, Phil Harris (to whom she was married for more than 50 years until his death) was well-equipped, he had nothing on first husband Tony Martin who was "gigantic"!!!

Alice and Phil would frequently run into Tony and Cyd in social situations and Alice and Tony always greeted one another warmly. Phil Harris also liked Tony and had no issues with their friendship. Cyd, however, treated Alice with cold indifference and found Phil to be a "loud, obnoxious drunk..."

Cyd also looked down her nose at anyone at MGM who worked for Producer Joe Pasternak. She considered the Pasternak Unit to be comparable to "traveling in steerage" and felt that doing films for the Freed Unit made her vastly superior.

She loathed Dolores Gray, calling her "Horse Face".

While audiences rightfully applauded some of Cyd's dancing expertise and beauty (although cosmetically enhanced beginning in the early 1950's), she never really connected with audiences in the way that some stars at Metro did. You never heard critics or the public saying, "I can't wait for the new Cyd Charisse film to come out..." She could not carry a picture and much of that was due to the lack of intimate connection that audiences felt when watching her. She could be admired for her dancing but was never beloved.

In the internet age, with YouTube, clips, and gifs, I'd say Cyd Charisse has gained a solid legacy for herself, more than some of her contemperies who connected with audiences back in the day. Her dances and performances during those dances are exciting little pieces of history and culture to many people.

r396 - MAME succeeded because of Angie. She brought Hollywood glamour, a relatively fresh (and freshened) face, and a surprisingly strong singing voice (ACW aside). Plus...she was also a surprisingly strong dancer. It just wouldn't have worked with Nanette. One of the many problems with doing MAME is the role requires casting a true triple threat. One that can also do a believable, charming, zany eccentricity.

And Glamour with a capital G, don't forget Glamour, r409. Nanette could never have provided the Glamour.

I love Alice Faye, her films and her singing. It's sad that she's mostly forgotten today.

I love the watch Alice Faye and Jack Haley and Shirley Temple tap dance in POOR LITTLE RICH GIRL......

Ugh......I could only find the colorized one on YouTube.

Alice, Carmen, Busby...what else could one ask for?

Oops, whow could I leave out Charlotte Greenwood???

Wait...Gene Kelly and Stanley Donen = lovers? I don’t believe it. Wasn’t Gene a huge homophobe?

How was Cyd in SILK STOCKINGS?

"Silk Stockings" was a considerable box-office failure, losing nearly 1.4 million. Reviews were mixed but both Cyd and Fred danced very well and Cyd's performance was better than usual, since she was playing a cold, standoffish character.

The best reviews belonged to Janis Paige in a supporting but memorable turn.

Kelly and Donen were lovers for several years, after Kelly's tryst with Director Vincente Minnelli which contributed to the break-up of his marriage to Judy Garland since it happened during the "shooting" of "The Pirate". Kelly was bisexual although he portrayed himself as being straight and took delight in making inappropriate anti-gay remarks. A truly nasty individual, more self-absorbed than Trump.

Lansbury discusses how, by the time of MAME, she had learned to sing "big" but "not nearly big enough."

Dolores Gray certainly wouldn't have had any difficulty with singing big enough.

r413 I never miss a Eugene Pallette musical.

Wow, r413, you learn something new everyday.

Now, I read that Kelly encouraged Tommy Tune to change his name, saying that it was too theatrical. And he was dismissive of people who didn’t have to talent of some sort, particularly in the movie business. He was snobby about it.

But he also championed the Nicholas Brothers, weren’t they in a very demanding dance number with him despite his movie studio’s reluctance to have a white man dancing onscreen with black people? I guess he was liberal - to a point. And he did speak of he and his brother Fred getting into fights with the neighborhood bullies because they called them sissies for being dancers.

[quote]R409 She brought Hollywood glamour, a relatively fresh (and freshened) face, and a surprisingly strong singing voice (ACW aside).

A Chorus Whine?

Cyd's 4 best known films at MGM for the Arthur Freed unit and in which she was female star, were all huge money losers at the box-office.

1. The Band Wagon" - $ 1,185,000 loss 2. Brigadoon - $ 1,555,000 loss 3. It's Always Fair Weather - $ 1,675,000 loss 4. Silk Stockings - $ 1,399,000 loss

A title she made for the Pasternak Unit ("Meet Me in Las Vegas" only lost $ 496,000 and another she made for Pasternak ("Party Girl") actually showed a profit of $ 454,000.

[quote]R417 Kelly was bisexual although he portrayed himself as being straight and took delight in making inappropriate anti-gay remarks.

But why chose Minnelli, of all lopsided-looking people? Was he trying to secure future jobs, even then?

If they married, he’d be Gene Kelly-Minnelli.

R423 Cyd Charisse: BOX OFFICE POISON!

Kelly wanted "The Pirate" to be his film and Minnelli, who was fixated on Kelly's ass, made sure it received plenty of on-screen attention. Kelly also had Minnelli in mind to direct some future projects for him since Minnelli's name had power at MGM. Those projects never occurred because Kelly moved on to other "interests"

Judy catching them going at it during production, helped push her further into an abyss.

[R423] Cyd Charisse: BOX OFFICE POISON!

It didn't help that Gene Kelly starred in a couple of the titles. By the mid-50's, his star had faded considerably and his films were losing vast amounts of money at the box-office.

"Invitation to the Dance" lost more than $ 2,5 million for MGM and "Les Girls" lost $ 1,635,000. Musicals with the exception of Rodgers and Hammerstein adaptations, were losing their popularity.

r421 - Fred Kelly = FOLLIES!

r423 - Interesting that she danced with Liliane in Meet Me in Las Vegas, then replaced her in Grand Hotel...where she was...TERRIFIC!

R421 - The Nicholas Brothers were in The Pirate with Gene Kelly doing the first version of "Be a Clown".

Keep it gay! Keep it gay! Keep it gay!

To be fair, r432, sunscreen wasn't in wide use at the time.

According to James Mitchell who originated the role of Harry Beaton on Broadway in "Brigadoon", he was offered the chance to recreate the role in the film. He was under contract to MGM and had recently appeared in "The Band Wagon".

The studio, however, went with someone else but Mitchell claims it was at the insistence of Kelly.

He and Kelly had shared a sexual dalliance and Kelly felt he'd be uncomfortable having Mitchell on the set.

Mitchell danced with Charisse in "The Band Wagon" and later that year in "Deep in My Heart". He also danced with her several times on television in the 1960's. He respected her dancing skills and professionalism but never warmed to her personally and was offended by her homophobia and deliberate nastiness to anyone she perceived as being gay.

James Mitchell was hot

I was a Cyd fan but it sucks knowing she was a homophobe

I'm not sure that I believe that Garland caught her husband and Kelly together, since she made another movie with Gene -- Summer stock -- and was supposd to do Easter Parade with him before he was injured and replaced by Astaire.

The Bandwagon is a nearly perfect musical – good songs, good dancing, lots of comedy that still lands, appealing performances… It's probably among MGM's very best, I'm surprised it was a box office disappointment

Lansbury also had the huge advantage of being British and having that accent. In 1966 everything British was all the rage. And Lansbury truly looked glamorous. Nanette did not.

[quote] Lansbury truly looked glamorous.

Eh. She was kind of dough faced.

I believe even the immortal Singing in the Rain while a success was not the huge success that On the Town and American in Paris were. Then Kelly went to Europe and made the terrible Invitation to the Dance which nobody likes and comes back to make the dipped in concrete Brigadoon.

"Singin' in the Rain" made a profit of $ 666,000 - not bad at all but certainly not anywhere near blockbuster or even smash hit status. "According to MGM records, during the film's initial theatrical release, it made $3,263,000 in the US and Canada and $2,367,000 internationally, earning the studio a profit of $666,000."

R406 - There aren't any deets, really. Kelly just worked everyone to death. Astaire demanded rehearsal till routines were perfect, but Kelly's style, with all those balletic lifts, etc., really was ruthless on the other dancers' bodies.

Kelly's reputation behind the scenes wasn't unlike that of Jerome Robbins.

Did someone ask for glamour?

By the early 1950s, most film musicals were tanking because of a little invention called TV where Americans could watch all kinds of musical shit in their own home for free.

It's surprising that James Mitchell was of English stock. Even in old age, Mitchell looked like he could have been related to Ricardo Montalban.

{quote] The Bandwagon is a nearly perfect musical

I can't agree.

It seems rather seedy and contrived to me. Elderly Fred and hard-faced Sid. Plus, Noseless Nanette, Pie-eyed Levant and poor old sexuagenarian Jack Buchanan dragged out of his retirement home hospital bed to make poor old Fred look comparatively young.

Cyd wasn't hard faced, she was blank faced.

I watched "The Band Wagon" years ago. I recall it being rather bitty (granted, a charge that can be levelled at many a musical). Charisse never seemed like a leading lady. She was a specialty act. Like Ann Miller. Audiences could invest in Fred, or Judy, or Doris. Not so Charisse.

Vincente Minnelli's flings with Garlands co-stars was common knowledge around the Culver City lot.

After dining with her co-star in "The Clock", actor Robert Walker on the pretext of discussing his interpretation of his role, Minnelli took advantage of the very vulnerable actor who was still reeling from his broken marriage to actress Jennifer Jones.

Closeted gay actor, Tom Drake, the "boy next door" from "Meet Me in St. Louis" willingly participated in extracurricular activities with his director.

Van Johnson liked to vacation in Ogunquit, Maine. In the 1970's after a night of drinking at Valerie's Restaurant in that town, he opened up to a group of gay men sitting around the piano bar in the venue and noted that Cincente Minnelli "had better suction power than a Hoover vacuum cleaner. "

Van Johnson liked to vacation in gay-friendly Ogunquit, Maine.

One evening in the 1970's, he was dining and drinking at Valerie's Restaurant in that town and sitting around the piano bar with a group of gay men. He gladly shared with them that Vincente Minnelli "...had better suction power than a Hoover vacuum cleaner..."

God loved Nanette so much, he made this.

[quote]Musicals with the exception of Rodgers and Hammerstein adaptations, were losing their popularity.

Really?

Those all came later, r457. We're taking about the early 1950s (pre-1955) when MGM let go of all of their musical contract players like Kelly, Astaire, Keel, Grayson, Powell, Allyson, etc. MGM, for better or worse, rarely made hits out of Broadway musicals like those you mention in your signature.

R454, any more Van stories? At least a couple DLers claimed to have hooked up with him in his later years

R458 But I thought someone here said "the Freed Unit" was closed around 1956.

If the Freed Unit was around after 1954-1955, it was truly just a shadow of itself. They weren't producing anything.

Though Arthur Feed is listed as the producer of 1958's GIGI, most of the executive crew was re-assembled just for that film. It was the last gasp.

Guys and Dolls was a big hit. I don't like it very much because it is so badly cast and I hate the too stylized sets. But it was hugely successful. I believe High Society was a big hit as well.

Wasn't the very mediocre Bells Are Ringing the last wheeze of the Freed unit? A hit in the cities and did poorly everywhere else.

Mitchell was cast as a Mexican farm worker by MGM for the noirish BORDER INCIDENT (49). The casting department must have been run by crazy people.

Circling back to Cyd, Ann Miller said she had been promised by Arthur Freed the part in Silk Stockings that Janis Paige was given. Ann said she felt so betrayed that she wanted out of her MGM contract but they said no.

These specialty acts were lucky to get parts in enduring classics:

Cyd Charisse in Singin' in the Rain, the Bandwagon, and Silk stockings.

Ann Miller in Easter Parade and Kiss me Kate.

And if MGM wasn't so good in cannibalizing itself, then That's Entertainment! might never have happened, and the memory of these performers would be fading even faster

People outside of DL know who Cyd and Ann are? Their contemporary audiences are dead at this point. Even us eldergays weren't going to see their movies first run.

[quote]People outside of DL know who Cyd and Ann are?

Do people outside of DL truly matter? But I think that anyone who has an interest in old movie musicals (and there are probably more than you might think) would be familiar with both Cyd and Ann.

Why did Gene Kelly get a “special” Oscar for SITR?

While "Show Boat" was a tremendous hit for MGM and the Freed Unit, the two follow-up Grayson-Keel pairings ("Lovely to Look At" and Cole Porter's "Kiss Me Kate") did not do very well.

Attempts to resurrect the screen operetta ("The Student Prince", "Rose Marie" and "The Merry Widow") met with only middling success.

"Love Me or Leave Me" in 1955 from Joe Pasternak, was an exception and did extraordinarily well. The soundtrack album topped the charts for months. Doris Day, not an MGM contract player, was credited with much of the reason for the success.

With the exception of the Rodgers and Hammerstein adaptations, few musicals sparkled in the latter 50's although both "The Pajama Game" and "Damn Yankess" at Warners had modest success.

"Gigi" an original screen musical did well at MGM but "Bells are Ringing" in 1960 lost about 1.7 million.

After "West Side Story" was released, there was a spate of popular musicals released including "The Music Man", "Bye, Bye Birdie", "Gypsy" and in 1964, "My Fair Lady", "Mary Poppins" and "Molly Brown". Most of these, however, were not MGM films and the days of MGM releasing 8 - 10 musicals in a year, were but a dim memory.

American in Paris was released after Showboat and was a tremendous hit everywhere as well. And though not Freed Seven Brides was a spectacular success.

[R467] Many people on DL are inexplicably preoccupied with the issue of "relevance" and are seemingly terrified of a younger person telling them they're old, when that fact is always self-evident. "No one cares..." is a favorite refrain on here. As if in 30 years 12 year-olds will know who Beyonce is and be whiling away their time on TikTok. DL is a cultural grab bag/exchange across generations and I can only assume that a certain brand of curious young person ends up here. Is Socrates irrelevant? Is Mozart? I just watched METROPOLIS from 1927 for the first time. Does that make me old and irrelevant? Treating art as historical detritus is a dangerous Philistine stance. Maybe the "relevant" people will torch the Louvre, public libraries and other culture treasures and we will all get to live in an antiseptic present shorn of all past history and art forms.

If it's being discussed on a DL thread it's relevant as far as DL is concerned. 470 and counting responses on a thread dedicated to Cyd Charisse and old Hollywood musicals proves that they matter to people.

I guess 7 Brides must have been the last original musical (not a Broadway adaptation) to be a big financial hit for a long time? What would have been the next one....Thoroughly Modern Millie?

Ooops. I'll oh dear myself and say that Gigi came between 7 Brides and Millie (I always forget Gigi wasn't based on a Broadway show).

Well I'll second oh dear you and tell you there was a small modest original musical with the initials MP.

I bet he could crack walnuts with his butt cheeks.

Somewhere I heard a interview with Susan Lucci where she reminisced about James Mitchell (who she called Jimmy) coming up to her during a long day and dancing with her during their break and how wonderful he was. She seemed very fond of him.

Maybe because it was played on my local PBS station off and on for awhile when they would play classic movies on Saturdays and take a break from their all British mysteries all the time or play them during pledge week instead of their current rotation of concert informercials, but I had always assumed Kiss Me Kate was a decent hit. I think it has aged pretty well and is an entertaining movie. For some reason, I assumed Silk Stockings had done ok as well. It just shows that what was big at the time, might not necessarily be the movie that ages the best for later viewers.

Gigi was based on a hit (non-musical) play

And James Mitchell was definitely hot!

[quote]Gigi was based on a hit (non-musical) play

That starred Audrey Hepburn.

Leslie Caron couldn't sing either.

No, r481, she really couldn't. Years ago I worked with a woman who'd been a dancer and in a production of Can-Can with her. She said that her singing was...painful.

[quote] Gigi was based on a hit (non-musical) play.

I can't understand why this story could make a hit play. It's all about prostitutes, the male hero is lame and story doesn't go anywhere.

I can understand why Lerner and Loewe chose to make a musical out of the play Pygmalion but 'Gigi seemed so lame and uneventful.

Re The Nicholas Brothers and The Pirate. From memory we only see them in the Be A Clown first version. Were they in the scrapped Voodoo number? In one of those docos on Judy it is said that they were told to stay home until Judy was able to work but I don't think they have any scenes with her in the existing film.

[quote]R470 “Love Me or Leave Me" in 1955 from Joe Pasternak, was an exception and did extraordinarily well. The soundtrack album topped the charts for months.

Is that technically considered a musical? I mean, it’s about a singer and we see her at work... but I’ve never considered it a musical, exactly.

I guess it has musical [italic]numbers...[/italic]

I would also consider the Cabaret film a musical, r486.

Right. I guess ALL THAT JAZZ is in a similar format. Except for the closing number.

I'm listening to you, R486, and I agree with you.

My husband does not visit Datalounge or any other forum. I mentioned Cyd Charisse today and he laughed out loud and said, "Wow, that's a long way back!" So there are people not on Datalounge who do remember her.

Has anyone on this 500 post thread had much positive to say about this dead dancer named Sid?

I don't.

The best that could be said about her is she was a good dancer.

It begins and ends with that.

What I've learmed about Cyd from this thread is that she was an excellent dancer and had a good body, but average in looks, could not sing or act, got into some classic films anyway, and was a massive CUNT and seemed to enjoy being a cunt. The end.

Also that she hated "sissies."

She hated "sissies" and Nanette Fabray.

There was a series years ago of Dance on film which was held at the Walter Reade Theater in Lincoln Center when a lot of people who had major careers in musicals were still alive. I saw Leslie Caron, Stanley Donen and Michael Kidd speak about their lives making these films with a generous number of musical numbers which were thank god shown in 35 mm and not on video. I spoke to the curator and interviewer after one such interview and told her Cyd Charrisse would provide a great evening and she kind of looked at me and her face went white. She made no response. I felt like I had made a faux pas just bringing up her name. Cyd why were you such a bitch on wheels?

If she never made another musical number, that Dancing in the Dark number with Fred Astaire, set in Central Park, would seal her place in the cinematic firmament. Simple costumes, simple set but oh how smooth and how elegant.

Also, I think the audience can identify with that number because it seems as though it is something we can actually accomplish ourselves, no complicated steps or choreography to contend with.

While I had heard of Sheree North as a Marilyn Monroe clone. And I knew that she had a guest spot in "The Golden Girls," I didn't know that North was a dancer until someone posted that number with Jacques d'Amboise on another thread. It was so erotic, it stopped me in my tracks. Was North highly rated as a dancer?

[Quote] I can't understand why this story could make a hit play. It's all about prostitutes

Are you NUTS?!

"Also, I think the audience can identify with that number because it seems as though it is something we can actually accomplish ourselves, no complicated steps or choreography to contend with."

Yes, r497...

It was a fucking musical, r489, you steaming turd!

Is it a musical if all the numbers are "performance" numbers (i.e. the character is performing on a stage)?

If you're going by that definition, neither the film versions of Cabaret or Chicago would be considered musicals.

Did Fosse remark on why he did that? It makes sense in light of the decline of musicals. "Make it a movie with music" etc.

I'd buy it if it were a standard bio-pic with Doris just singing Ruth's songs as she had performed them. But the numbers got the splashy MGM Musical treatment and they bore little similarity to the way Ruth performed them. For one thing ...

"While the original plan for the show was for Etting to do a tap dance after singing "Shaking the Blues Away", she later remembered she was not a very good dancer. At the show's final rehearsal, Flo Ziegfeld told her, "Ruth, when you get through singing, just walk off the stage".

Weren't a significant number of the splashy 30's musicals movies where the singing and dancing all took place on stage or the dance floor as part of a show?

[quote]I can't understand why this story could make a hit play. It's all about prostitutes.

Specifically, an underage prostitute in training.

I guess some of you will be picketing the next revival of "Carousel"...

r507 is the reason the word tedious was invented.

[R506] Yes, absolutely. The early musicals were usually conceived of as backstage stories about performers (Dancing Lady from 1933 is a good example). They would usually employ a flimsy boy-meets-girl plot that served as a pretext to showcase a collection of songs, most often not expressly composed for the story in question (e.g., the song Singin' in the Rain appeared in multiple musicals before the 1952 classic). It was the era of vaudeville and the musical revue. That all changed with the advent of the "integrated musical" in which the songs were composed to serve a particular plot and a story (The Wizard of Oz). Arthur Freed is usually credited with popularizing the integrated musical, although the widely-held claim that the songs in the integrated musical "advanced the plot" is mostly bogus. A song like Over the Rainbow underscores the emotion of the story - it doesn't really "advance" the plot (e.g., it's Dorothy's lament and she doesn't end up in a different place from when the song began).

It's a standard musical *want song*, r510. I would argue that if not plot advancing, it definitely deepens the character of Dorothy.

The Broadway Melody the first sound film to win a Best Oscar uses songs as performance numbers on stage, to 'sell' a song, and to advance the plot outside the framework of performing like many musicals to come.

One Hour With You, Love Me Tonight and Le Million from the very early 30s are integrated musicals using numbers both to establish character and advance the plot.

Were audiences upset or happy to see Shaking the Blues Away performed so brilliantly by Ann Miller in Easter Parade in 1948 performed again so soon and so brilliantly by Doris Day in Love Me Or Leave Me in 1955, both produced by MGM?

Which is your favorite version of the song? Mine happens to be Annie's version. And I love how she swishes around that fabulous skirt.

Day said that when Cagney started brutalizing her in the bedroom the scene had to be cut otherwise it wouldn't have gotten past the censors.

[quote]Were audiences upset or happy to see Shaking the Blues Away performed so brilliantly by Ann Miller in Easter Parade in 1948 performed again so soon and so brilliantly by Doris Day in Love Me Or Leave Me in 1955, both produced by MGM?

Seven years is a long time, and remember that there was no home video nor were these movies shown on TV regularly back then. So it's likely they'd forgotten all about it.

Ann's is more like a "truckdriver in drag" while Day's is done more in the style of Ziegfeld, as performed in "Love Me or Leave Me".

Ann is fine - enthusiastic and seeming to have a great time in her first MGM role, but it's still Ann doing what she would do variations of during the coming years. For Doris, it was a huge step away from her Warner Brothers films and a musical highlight of a gripping motion picture.

R513, people still love the number. I know a few dancers(not the one in the video), and they love Ann and Cyd.

Barbershop version. This one is where the boys are.

Was Doris given a dance double for the number? Why all those long shots?? I much prefer Ann Miller's version. She is a better dancer, doesn't need backup chorus boys, and sings it better.

Actually, I'd say it's Doris who looks like a "truckdriver in drag" in her version of the number, not Annie.

There was something about the way she presented herself in the later half of the 1950s, her makeup, the severe short hairdos and possibly a little weight gain, that was not as pretty as the young girl in the earlier Warner Bros musicals (Tea for Two, On Moonlight Bay, etc.) and the later fashionable Lady of the Romcoms (Pillow Talk, That Touch of Mink, etc.).

Didn't Ann Miller supposedly shoot her number with a back brace after her husband pushed her down a flight of stairs?

Oh for chrissakes, you bums, they're both great.

[quote]R520 Didn't Ann Miller supposedly shoot her number with a back brace after her husband pushed her down a flight of stairs?

It wasn’t her husband, it was someone from DL.

I didn't *push* her, r552, I *twirled* her.

The fact that it was in 1948 makes it most likely it was someone from DL.

[quote]WTF was that all about?

Apparently about one of the bigger cunts at MGM.

I watched Ziegfeld Follies today for the first time. Ooo-wee did that thing have some filler in it. In the opening number, Bring on the PINK!, I was most impressed with Cyd ending her number by going back, stepping on the moving turntable and standing there...all the time on point. Some socko numbers and...filler.

There is quite a bit of filler in that movie. For me there are only 4 sequences that I like.

I know there are a lot of places to watch movies nowadays, but one of the substations, Movies!, is running it this month and I intend to check it out, I have not seen it in many years. But what I do remember is that the comedy sections are dreadful

I happen to like the Fanny Brice lottery ticket bit but the others are pure torture.

[quote]A song like Over the Rainbow underscores the emotion of the story - it doesn't really "advance" the plot (e.g., it's Dorothy's lament and she doesn't end up in a different place from when the song began).

Only if you ignore the entire Technicolor portion of the film.

Should've crushed that wonk-eyed cunt with my giant can of soup.

Annie opening Disney MGM Studios.

I wonder why MGM wouldn't cast Ann Miller in Silk Stockings in the Janis Paige role. Jan is fabulous but the part would have seemed to be a natural for Annie's talents and Jan wasn't even a contract player. Perhaps they considered it too much of a supporting role?

[quote]Gay men might be dazzled by boozy, druggy, tubby, crazy Marilyn but I’ll bet that most straight guys would go for Cyd first. Cyd had a far better body and didn’t exude mental and physical ill health.

Are you insane? Marilyn was the fantasy of millions of men. She was THE sex symbol of her time.

That's what's I watched it on, r528. And, yes, the comedy sections are pretty bad. I didn't like the Fanny Brice one, r529.

What are the good sections of Ziegfeld Follies? The only ones I remember are the opening with Lucy whipping the catwomen and Judy doing The Great Lady Gives an Interview. It's really shocking how tedious the film is, considering all of the talent that was at MGM when they made it.

Marilyn and Cyd were both gorgeous - no straight man would have turned either one down. You're crazy if you think Marilyn was "tubby"

Ya know what Judy's Great Lady Gives an Interview needed, r537? TAP, honey, *I* gave it...TAP!

Lana Turner did a version too.

Lana Turner is almost unfailingly an embarrassment.

[quote] …embarrassment.…

That's the word I was thinking also. I have always avoided her stuff because she always seemed so useless.

I wonder what Ingrid Bergman thought about her when they switched roles in 'Docter Jekkyl'

Lana Turner didn't belong at MGM.

She was an low-rent broad who really belonged over at Warners or Republic with Mayo Methot and Mamie Van Doren.

It doesn't make sense for Ann Miller to do the sketch because she was always known for her torso.

R533 - Ann said Arthur Freed's rationale for dropping her from the film was hair color. Cyd was a brunette and he didn't want the second female lead to also be one. though I think Janis is s brunette in the film too. Ann went blonde for one film at Columbia I think but she said the peroxide damaged her hair so she would never do it again. The Silk Stockings saga in mentioned in the new bio on Ann by Peter Shelley.

Doris seemed to have bad skin. Freckled and pitted. Look at her closeups in MIDNIGHT LACE. Brutal. Theat film is a guilty pleasure for me because her acting is so horrible in it. David Miller forgot to put the brakes on her overwrought emoting. The scene where she has the breakdown on the stairs with Myrna Loy and Rex Harrison are watching her gives me life, it’s so hysterically funny.

[quote]R546 That film is a guilty pleasure for me because her acting is so horrible in it. The scene where she has the breakdown on the stairs...

Can it be worse that this?

I wonder.

Yes, r547, even worse than that.

R546, David Miller had kind of a strange career. He made the rape infused disaster The Esther Costello Story.

R549, another guilty pleasure...she was blind and deaf until she got some dick?

I need to get some dick like that; maybe I won’t have to wear eyeglasses anymore! ESTHER COSTELLO is classically craptacular. Joan was in her kabuki period, her face a campy mask and that tightly coiled prison matron coif. Loved it.

Doris Day received a Golden Globe nomination as Best Actress for "Midnight Lace" and when Film Daily named the five best female performances of 1960, she was included. (See below)

Best Performances by Female Stars 1) Elizabeth Taylor in Butterfield 8 2) Greer Garson in Sunrise at Campobello 3) Shirley MacLaine in The Apartment 4) Doris Day in Midnight Lace 5) Jean Simmons in Elmer Gantry

--

He also did Sudden Fear with Joan. I think it’s pretty good. The last ten or fifteen minutes contains no dialogue. Oh, R550, here is Lenny Bruce on Esther Costello!

"Midnight Lace" was also included as one of the year's ten best (see below). The scene where Doris collapses on the staircase in front of Rex and Myrna was actually Doris having a real breakdown. Producer Ross Hunter told her to stay off the set for several days while she recovered.

With respect to her skin - Doris enjoyed sunbathing until she was in her mid-30's and MGM make-up director, William Tuttle suggested she stop the practice as it would cause skin issues because of her fair skin. In addition, she was allergic to much of the heavy duty make-up worn for the camera and it caused her skin to frequently break-out. That was the principal reason for the use of a softer focus for close-ups. The diffusion hid those issues.

The Film Daily’s Ten Best Pictures of 1960

1) The Apartment- 208 votes 2) Elmer Gantry- 196 3) Ben-Hur(1959)- 194 4) Inherit the Wind- 160 5) Sunrise at Campobello- 144 6) The Dark at the Top of the Stairs- 104 7) Suddenly, Last Summer (1959)- 101 8) Spartacus- 98 9) Sons and Lovers- 96 10) Midnight Lace- 85

--

Doris said the guys at Warner Bros. weren't makeup men - they were embalmers.

Don't forget the freckles, r554.

"another guilty pleasure...she was blind and deaf until she got some dick?"

At the datalounge, getting raped is "getting some dick"

Was it ever established WTF OP meant by "Cyd Charisse: WTF was that all about?"

It amazes me how lousy actresses like Susan Hayward, Natalie Wood and yes, even Doris Day were garnering Oscar nominations in the late 1950s and yet Marilyn Monroe was never credited with anything other than being a sex symbol. MM should have won in 1959 for Some Like It Hot.

^ The Academy has been slow to acknowledge comedic performances

Her bubble-headed blonde character lacked depth, r561.

[quote]R554 With respect to her skin - Doris enjoyed sunbathing until she was in her mid-30's and MGM make-up director, William Tuttle suggested she stop the practice as it would cause skin issues because of her fair skin.

In her autobiography, Day recommends sleeping slathered head to toe in Vaseline one night a week, with gloves on. She says you need a separate bedroom for this, because your husband won’t enjoy the smell.

(I wonder if it was to avoid Surprise Anal, myself.)

[quote]Lana Turner is almost unfailingly an embarrassment.

Since this is a thread about Cyd Charisse, it's worth noting Lana Turner was a better actress than Cyd Charisse, who I love, but she couldn't act. Kirk Douglas even wrote that Cyd was no Lana, in Two Weeks In Another Town, in which Cyd was, unfortunately, an embarrassment. He was referring to The Bad And The Beautiful. If you don't like Lana in that, I guess you don't like Lana. Peyton Place, Imitation Of Life, A Life Of Her Own and Madame X were all good dramatic performances. Her comedies were usually fun, she did a lot of mediocre stuff but not a lot of crap.

I thought Lana was awful even in her "serious" roles like Imitation of Life. Claudette Colbert was so much better in the 1934 version of IoL

The young Lana Turner had a nice body, but she got generic looking really fast.

And she didn’t act any better in anything than your Aunt Tilly would, if suddenly thrown onto the screen.

Which would explain her oh-so-brief career, r566.

I think men liked her BECAUSE of her lack of distinction. They were like, “Oh, it’s a nice, blank blonde.”

[R564] I agree that Lana was talented. She represented a certain brand of first-magnitude Hollywood star - glamor girl, versatile actress, survivor - that epitomizes the studio system and its acting style (like, Joan Crawford, her diction was impeccable due to her MGM elocution training). She was utterly fabulous in melodramas. Those who say she "couldn't act" should watch (or re-watch) THE POSTMAN ALWAYS RINGS TWICE and/or IMITATION OF LIFE. Lana could act her tits off.

I've seen both of those movies, r569. She wasn't particularly good in either.

[quote] R542 I have always avoided her stuff because she always seemed so useless. I wonder what Ingrid Bergman thought about her when they switched roles in 'Docter Jekyll’

She was thrilled to be given a varied, emotive part. She was an actual actress who could do different things.

Turner insisted she was behind the switch, saying she went to a studio head and cried, explaining the part of the doomed barmaid was beyond her capabilities.

Which was wise.

[quote] She says you need a separate bedroom for this, because your husband won’t enjoy the smell.

At least she had a husband. And was in the same ZIP code as him.

[R571] Thanks for showing us Ingrid! This is how it's done - she was such a wonderful actress. Notice the progression of emotions flickering across her face and how easily she commands the screen as she draws you in. Incandescent.

Bergman is one of the only stars from that era that can come across as “real”... in the way that we appreciate (dramatic) acting today.

Maybe it’s partially because she was from Europe, and that society was a little more free? (Though there were plenty of European zombies onscreen, too.)

[R574] I wouldn't over-analyze. I assume her "real" quality is related to her natural talent, her own special way of relating to the camera - something that can't be taught or acquired. I'd name Hedy Lamarr as Head Zombie of the European Division. I you want to see bad acting, Hedy's your girl. She stinks.

Jane Powell, in the great interview linked way upthread, said Hedy Lamarr was the only actor she ever worked with who was openly hostile and unpleasant to her.

I recorded Cyd's last MGM movie (after 14 years at the studio), 1958's Party Girl, on Movies! I haven't watched it yet, but directed by Nicolas Ray in what seems to be some eye-poppingly lurid technicolor, I look forward to it.

Also starring Robert Taylor, apparently they were the last two contract stars at MGM.

Weren't Liz and Debbie still under long-time contract at MGM in 1958?

[R576] Thanks for mentioning the article because I just read it and it IS a great interview! Really unlike a typical Hollywood star. Incidentally, I recently watched THE FEMALE ANIMAL (1958 - free on YouTube), the film Jane Powell made with Hedy Lamarr referenced in the article, and Jane Powell was far and away the best thing in it as the out-of-control sexpot. She reminded me somewhat of Dorothy Malone in WRITTEN ON THE WIND. Hedy was bad - she simply can't act.

I don't know if Hedy Lamarr was too smart (she did invent wi-fi, after all!) or too stupid for her own good, but please include her in that DL thread about Stars Who Most Fucked Up Their Careers. And, incidentally, Hedy could also be reply 1 in Stars Who Most Fucked Up Their Faces.

[quote]R576 Jane Powell, in the great interview linked way upthread, said Hedy Lamarr was the only actor she ever worked with who was openly hostile and unpleasant to her.

Hedy Lamarr was also one of the few stars the (overly?) professional Edith Head alluded to personally disliking. I think she said Hedy was more interested in lying on the floor and eating a pot roast sandwich than finishing a wardrobe fitting.

The other actresses who made Head bristle were Paulette Goddard, Mary Martin and Claudette Colbert.

"Party Girl"??? Who is the playing the Party Girl--Lana or Robert Taylor?

Edith Head also hated Veronica Lake. And I just have a feeling she didn't appreciate Audrey Hepburn insisting on wearing Givenchy's designs in Sabrina.

So that's quite a list, not just one or two.

My darlings, of all the people to go on and on about--Cyd Charisse?!?!? Great legs, a fantastic "mover," as I think Fred Astaire once said....but there's no there there.

[R580] The notion that she "invented wifi" is preposterous and highly exaggerated - the makers of that BOMBSHELL documentary purposely misled the public to sell their film and now a whole generation thinks she not only "invented wifi" but almost single-handedly won WW2 for the Allies! She collaborated on an early version of a "frequency-shifting" concept that was much later used in applied communications technology, but that technology did not build directly on her work, nor was anything she patented subsequently built. Hedy and her collaborator made a patent and brought it to the attention of the U.S. military, which did nothing with it. That's it.

I suspect Hedy herself exaggerated the story - she seems like a BIG LIAR. The story of her escaping from the castle of her rich, aristocratic and much older husband because he was a Nazi also seems preposterous - like an MGM melodrama. I doubt it happened as Hedy told it. For all of her beauty and tall tales she was a very dull screen presence.

My 60-year-old brother-in-law, straight as can be, recently told me that he thought that Hedy Lamar was the most beautiful movie star to come out of classic Hollywood

[quote]r583 Edith Head also hated Veronica Lake.

Did she?? I never read Head say much of anything about Lake, aside from that the actress was “the smallest normal person” she’d ever seen.

Head emphasized Lake’s large breasts, which made her seem a little bigger, all over. She also employed platform shoes. And tall hats when she could.

Analysis of Edith Head’s techniques used on the diminutive Veronica Lake:

Not to mention acting opposite the diminutive, Mr. Ladd, r587.

[quote]MM should have won in 1959 for Some Like It Hot.

Bus Stop.

I have a signed letter Veronica wrote to me....

Awwwwwww! What does it say??

She seems like an introverted person who just suddenly ended up a famous actress. I don’t think she was a natural fit for all the competition that comes along with a Hollywood career. She was delicious in several roles, though.

OMG! I’m glad you made her smile.

I’m sure your letter must have been special to her : )

Thanks for sharing!

I liked Lana. She was capable of giving good performances when she was pushed to do so. I love IMITATION, but she overacts in it at times. To me at least, she was good in JOHNNY EAGER, POSTMAN, GREEN DOLPHIN STREET, THE BAD AND THE BEAUTIFUL, PEYTON PLACE and MADAME X. Though in the latter film she was far from believable as a young twentysomething bride of John Forsythe. She was no Bette Davis, but she was capable of good performances.

Mmmmmmm... she was passable in some undemanding roles when she underplayed. But you can’t say she “acted” in THE POSTMAN ALWAYS RINGS TWICE after you’ve seen an actual actress do it.

You're very welcome, r595.

You think she was good in Green Dolphin Street? She was playing a 19th century English gentlewoman, that was like Miscasting: The Movie

Lana, who had eight husbands, was certainly cast against type in "Peyton Place," playing a prim New England mother who's afraid of sex.

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